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Fuck 2257.
This might get me kicked off Tribe, so I'll reproduce the text on my blog :)
Tribe has not been hit with the 2257 brick. Tribe is *voluntarily* applying the 2257 laws to itself -- its members, the tribes and the very architecture of Tribe itself.
Two weeks ago Tribe asked me for a phone meeting; I didn't know what it was about but I figured it had something to do with Tribe's mature content. They explained to me in a half-hour conference call that they were gearing up to change Tribe's architecture (entry pages, etc) to conform to updated 2257 laws, which are record keeping requirements. The federal law now requires website owners to keep *physical* records documenting, among other things, that "a book, magazine, periodical, film, videotape, digitally- or computer-manipulated image, digital image, picture, or other matter that contains a visual depiction of an actual human being engaged in actual sexually explicit conduct" is over the age of 18. Visual depictions *after* 1990, mind you.
Link to text of law:
a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2...0107.htm
"Sexually explicit conduct" and "obscene" are the key words bandied about by means of definition of what falls into the law. Keeping records, according to this law, means that for each image the webmaster must have copies of the person in the images' Social Security info and legal photo ID, and all names they have ever used in a physical location somewhere; a business that is open at least 20 hours a week.
When the Tribe guys told me what they were doing, I first lamented that I'd just finished wirting a great book about our porn club due out next year (full of awesome quotes from y'all). Then I asked just how they were going to try and define images depicting "sexually explicit conduct" and "obscenity". I explained to them that the definitions in the law are shadowy and subjective at best, and here's why:
Over at adult site Eros Zine, my friend (the editor) had to go through all of their images and try to define the difference between a photo that was sexually explicit vs. not. It made him insane; "Is her butt red from a sunburn or a spanking?! Is she holding her breasts in a sexually explicit way, or just posing!?" Then there's the matter of images that fall into the freedom of speech category -- 2257 would prohibit *everyone* in the US from seeing images such as the prison photos from Abu Ghraib. The law is so broad, it can include bloggers, publishers, television and Hollywood. A political or human rights tribe would be wiped off the Tribe map for failing to conform to the laws, by including an Abu prison photo in their photo album.
I then explained that they were putting themselves in the tricky position of defining obscenity -- that by considering Tribe a porn producer and conforming it to 2257, the law would put them in that position. I explained to them how obscenity is defined in the American court system.
I told them that the state of the law in the United States about sexually explicit material revolves around keeping pornographers and adult retailers on their toes, never knowing for what, or when, they might be prosecuted for offending "community standards." The law in the U.S. states that something is considered "obscene," and therefore illegal to create or distribute, if a court *somewhere* says it is. You might hear people in and out of the adult industry say things like, "Showing urination is illegal," or "Showing S/M with sex is illegal," or "Portraying Bill O'Reilly as a journalist is illegal" (and if isn’t, it should be)—and all these cautious statements are incorrect. In fact, there’s only a single test, which is when a court in any of the 50 states decides that a particular thing (DVD, book, picture, fake journalist, whatever) is, by the "standards of the community," obscene.
No one making porn knows if what they are doing is illegal or not. This situation, I explained, is reminiscent of organized crime tactics, and is not an oversight; the U.S. Supreme Court is quite aware that the only way that retailers and pornographers can really be sure they won’t be prosecuted for "obscene" material is for them to avoid portraying activities that might possibly be interpreted as obscene (and now, sexually explicit) -- anywhere. In a court case for obscenity, the accused is held to whatever the local community’s standards are for obscenity, as determined by a jury.
Okay, I probably left out the part about Bill O'Reilly, but I was on my toes enough to rake them across the coals a bit to try and let them know what they were about to step into. They told me flat out that they felt that the definitions in 2257 in regards to sexually explicit conduct were absolutely clear -- I even asked them to repeat the statement. I asked them to think about the fact that they were going to enter an arena of applying community standards to tribes all over the United States, and what is not obscene here in SF, like a picture of a leatherman in assless chaps, would most certainly be considered obscene to someone in a Kansas tribe.
Their reply to all this was that they were going to rely on users to "flag" images and tribes as obscene. And that they were going to rely on the architecture of Tribe to force people to join in order to even look at a URL. Of course, I was instantly upset about what this means -- the links I have put on Fleshbot, and on my site to the Smart Girls' Porn Club are essentially dead links that lead through a multiple page signup process requiring personal informaiton. No one, I told them, would click through that. Linking to Tribe would be pointless. We'd lose the women who are just curious and maybe a little nervous about porn and exploring their own sexuality -- many of which are in this 450+ member tribe.
I thanked them for the courtesy call; it was clear that they had already decided all of this and the call to me was just to make nice. I told them to please call and talk to Jason Schultz over at the Elecetronic Freedom Foundation before making a move. I don't know if they did; I have yet to talk to Jason. I got notices in my tribe mail about removing images as the moderator of mature tribes, the penalties and the changes to Tribe's Terms of Use. I have done nothing. I am waiting to be penalized.
I think they are making a huge mistake, based on a law that is unenforcable. The law violates privacy -- I was sent the 2257 information for the porn performers I featured in my last podcast. I now have enough information to steal the actual identity, and stalk, every performer in that film. They performers don't even know I have that information, or who else might have it as a legal requirement, and nothing makes me more uncomfortable than having that information in my posession.
The law is meant for primary and secondary producers of porn, not online communities. The law violates our federal right to freedom of speech. The law is obstensibly created "to protect children from being exploited as [porn] performers", not healthy adult enjoyment of human sexuality. In truth, 2257 laws are less about protecting children from porn exploitation, but instead about regulating porn businesses, free speech and healthy adult sexual expression into unfesability.
My boyfriend sent me a link this morning, "check out this dude's Tribe profile!" I clicked the link and went to a signup page, with no login. I signed in, and tried to go to the URL, and went to the same signup page. I can't get to the link. And what will happen to our RSS feeds!? This tribe is now frozen in Tribe time.
More 2257 info and the shady definitions under the law here:
www.boingboing.net/2005/06/...ping.html
This might get me kicked off Tribe, so I'll reproduce the text on my blog :)
Tribe has not been hit with the 2257 brick. Tribe is *voluntarily* applying the 2257 laws to itself -- its members, the tribes and the very architecture of Tribe itself.
Two weeks ago Tribe asked me for a phone meeting; I didn't know what it was about but I figured it had something to do with Tribe's mature content. They explained to me in a half-hour conference call that they were gearing up to change Tribe's architecture (entry pages, etc) to conform to updated 2257 laws, which are record keeping requirements. The federal law now requires website owners to keep *physical* records documenting, among other things, that "a book, magazine, periodical, film, videotape, digitally- or computer-manipulated image, digital image, picture, or other matter that contains a visual depiction of an actual human being engaged in actual sexually explicit conduct" is over the age of 18. Visual depictions *after* 1990, mind you.
Link to text of law:
a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2...0107.htm
"Sexually explicit conduct" and "obscene" are the key words bandied about by means of definition of what falls into the law. Keeping records, according to this law, means that for each image the webmaster must have copies of the person in the images' Social Security info and legal photo ID, and all names they have ever used in a physical location somewhere; a business that is open at least 20 hours a week.
When the Tribe guys told me what they were doing, I first lamented that I'd just finished wirting a great book about our porn club due out next year (full of awesome quotes from y'all). Then I asked just how they were going to try and define images depicting "sexually explicit conduct" and "obscenity". I explained to them that the definitions in the law are shadowy and subjective at best, and here's why:
Over at adult site Eros Zine, my friend (the editor) had to go through all of their images and try to define the difference between a photo that was sexually explicit vs. not. It made him insane; "Is her butt red from a sunburn or a spanking?! Is she holding her breasts in a sexually explicit way, or just posing!?" Then there's the matter of images that fall into the freedom of speech category -- 2257 would prohibit *everyone* in the US from seeing images such as the prison photos from Abu Ghraib. The law is so broad, it can include bloggers, publishers, television and Hollywood. A political or human rights tribe would be wiped off the Tribe map for failing to conform to the laws, by including an Abu prison photo in their photo album.
I then explained that they were putting themselves in the tricky position of defining obscenity -- that by considering Tribe a porn producer and conforming it to 2257, the law would put them in that position. I explained to them how obscenity is defined in the American court system.
I told them that the state of the law in the United States about sexually explicit material revolves around keeping pornographers and adult retailers on their toes, never knowing for what, or when, they might be prosecuted for offending "community standards." The law in the U.S. states that something is considered "obscene," and therefore illegal to create or distribute, if a court *somewhere* says it is. You might hear people in and out of the adult industry say things like, "Showing urination is illegal," or "Showing S/M with sex is illegal," or "Portraying Bill O'Reilly as a journalist is illegal" (and if isn’t, it should be)—and all these cautious statements are incorrect. In fact, there’s only a single test, which is when a court in any of the 50 states decides that a particular thing (DVD, book, picture, fake journalist, whatever) is, by the "standards of the community," obscene.
No one making porn knows if what they are doing is illegal or not. This situation, I explained, is reminiscent of organized crime tactics, and is not an oversight; the U.S. Supreme Court is quite aware that the only way that retailers and pornographers can really be sure they won’t be prosecuted for "obscene" material is for them to avoid portraying activities that might possibly be interpreted as obscene (and now, sexually explicit) -- anywhere. In a court case for obscenity, the accused is held to whatever the local community’s standards are for obscenity, as determined by a jury.
Okay, I probably left out the part about Bill O'Reilly, but I was on my toes enough to rake them across the coals a bit to try and let them know what they were about to step into. They told me flat out that they felt that the definitions in 2257 in regards to sexually explicit conduct were absolutely clear -- I even asked them to repeat the statement. I asked them to think about the fact that they were going to enter an arena of applying community standards to tribes all over the United States, and what is not obscene here in SF, like a picture of a leatherman in assless chaps, would most certainly be considered obscene to someone in a Kansas tribe.
Their reply to all this was that they were going to rely on users to "flag" images and tribes as obscene. And that they were going to rely on the architecture of Tribe to force people to join in order to even look at a URL. Of course, I was instantly upset about what this means -- the links I have put on Fleshbot, and on my site to the Smart Girls' Porn Club are essentially dead links that lead through a multiple page signup process requiring personal informaiton. No one, I told them, would click through that. Linking to Tribe would be pointless. We'd lose the women who are just curious and maybe a little nervous about porn and exploring their own sexuality -- many of which are in this 450+ member tribe.
I thanked them for the courtesy call; it was clear that they had already decided all of this and the call to me was just to make nice. I told them to please call and talk to Jason Schultz over at the Elecetronic Freedom Foundation before making a move. I don't know if they did; I have yet to talk to Jason. I got notices in my tribe mail about removing images as the moderator of mature tribes, the penalties and the changes to Tribe's Terms of Use. I have done nothing. I am waiting to be penalized.
I think they are making a huge mistake, based on a law that is unenforcable. The law violates privacy -- I was sent the 2257 information for the porn performers I featured in my last podcast. I now have enough information to steal the actual identity, and stalk, every performer in that film. They performers don't even know I have that information, or who else might have it as a legal requirement, and nothing makes me more uncomfortable than having that information in my posession.
The law is meant for primary and secondary producers of porn, not online communities. The law violates our federal right to freedom of speech. The law is obstensibly created "to protect children from being exploited as [porn] performers", not healthy adult enjoyment of human sexuality. In truth, 2257 laws are less about protecting children from porn exploitation, but instead about regulating porn businesses, free speech and healthy adult sexual expression into unfesability.
My boyfriend sent me a link this morning, "check out this dude's Tribe profile!" I clicked the link and went to a signup page, with no login. I signed in, and tried to go to the URL, and went to the same signup page. I can't get to the link. And what will happen to our RSS feeds!? This tribe is now frozen in Tribe time.
More 2257 info and the shady definitions under the law here:
www.boingboing.net/2005/06/...ping.html
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Re: Tribe and 2257
Fri, December 9, 2005 - 2:07 PMThank you, V. --
I keep wondering, how many people have actually been investigated as a result of 2257? How many have had their businesses searched? How many were arrested? How many are being tried? Certainly, no convictions. (And is FSC giving us numbers?)
This law has worked so well to stifle the adult/erotic/porn/smutmakers of the States through self-censorship. Max Hardcore, Red Rose Stories, NTFU -- those are the only criminal cases I've heard of. The rest is just a massive chilling effect -- like at SG, and now here, at Tribe.
Tribe would make an excellent test case if there ever were one for pushing the lawmakers and lawyers to be clear about the differences between a producer and a distributor. In this case, Tribe apparently is more fearful of losing their business than the people who made the business successful. -
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Unsu...
Re: Tribe and 2257
Fri, December 9, 2005 - 3:10 PMThere have been no 2257 initiated exams in the 10 years thats its various forms have existed. When a few were prosecuted for obscenity, tax evasion, child porn etc 2257 was thrown on as well to 'stack' the charges against them.
Their (DOJ) true intent was never to actively pursue this as they have neither the true inclination nor the resources to do so. Their intent was to create a "culture of fear" which they are accomplishing through self censorship which Tribe and others are now doing.
In the long term as this goes through the courts it will NEVER pass constitutional muster and be thrown out. However, the damage done to free speech in the meantime is very disturbing. But then everything about the Bush administration is disturbing and in many cases very frightening. They have no regard for our laws, our rights and the values our founding fathers fought for. -
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Re: Tribe and 2257
Sat, December 10, 2005 - 5:03 PMI'm really at a loss as to what to say except for...no one is going to help us so we better fucken help ourselves. This is bullshit...Revolution People, Revolution. -
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Unsu...
Re: Tribe and 2257
Sun, December 11, 2005 - 3:22 PMThanks you Violet...
I do have to applaud Tribe's efforts in talking to you and getting your opinion/feedback even though they've decided to cave in.
They'd be a perfect company to fight it...why? Because the law targets producers of porn or those that sell porn..and Tribe DOES sell/produce pornography...,they're just a networking/community site.
ANd you know they'd win the challenge....
I still haven't figured out what to do with my Girls 4 Men being Men tribe...
yeah it's not enforceable...
Welcome back to the McCarthy era.... -
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Unsu...
Re: Tribe and 2257
Sun, December 11, 2005 - 3:37 PMThank you, Violet, for the enormously informative post, and the kick-ass tribe.
This is a huge step backwards for a site I (used to) care a lot about.
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Re: Tribe and 2257
Mon, December 12, 2005 - 6:26 PMJesus H Fucking Christ. This utterly ridiculous. I left My Space when I found out that RUpert Murdoch was buying and now it looks like Tribe might als be brought down by the conservative asses as well. *sigh* I worry a bit about this because I moderate an adult community over at Live Journal and I wonder if they'll try to do the same there. I hope not but I'll be holding my breath. Thanks for the heads up, Violet.
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Re: Tribe and 2257
Mon, December 12, 2005 - 10:16 PMI got slapped at flickr recently for pushing the boundary of niceness - sometimes I have this simple fantasy about two seperate internets - one for grown ups and one for everyone else.
Thanks Violet for the great post. Maintain the rage - slowly, slowly freedom and privacy is eroded...
In a recent edition of Eros magazine - The Journal of the Eros Assoc. here in Australia - US based adult performer Kami Andrews is quoted as stating she's had a mountain of mail show up a her home address and she's had "fans" loitering in her driveway - nice? :(
Of course I'm living in a country where a television program from the late seventies that regularly showed full frontal nudity and explored "adult themes" would not make it to air in 2006 -- we're going backwards and we're going there fast. -
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Re: Tribe and 2257
Wed, December 21, 2005 - 3:07 PM -
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Re: Tribe and 2257
Tue, December 27, 2005 - 7:21 PMyou know, i was just going to send you a message about all the pics. where did they go? now i know, and am sooooo disappointed in this stupid system we call America. i book marked your suggested links and will be keeping up with you and other stuff. i am really disheartened by this whole thing. i fucking hate beauracratic bullshit and the govt telling me what i can and can not see. this tribe is the *farthest* thing from kiddy porn, obscenity, or lewd conduct. it's naked bodies, for godsake!! thanks for standing up for what you (and the rest of us) believe in. let's not let the bastards get us down. -
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Re: Tribe and 2257
Wed, December 28, 2005 - 3:59 PMI didn't take the pictures out. Tribe did. And I got in a public fight with the marketing dude, which has now made the papers:
www.tinynibbles.com/blogarch...th_a.html -
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Re: Tribe and 2257
Wed, December 28, 2005 - 4:02 PMalso, I want to make public the email the marketing dude sent me, for legal visibility about what they're telling me -- and admitting to:
Thu, December 22, 2005 - 7:36 PM
Subject Answers to A Few Issues In Your Latest Blog Post
Message hi violet--
saw this post:
sexblo.gs/live/violet/t...d-dance-remix/
i'll try not to rehash anything we've already covered with you in
person, but a couple of things:
1. Smart Girls Porn Club could be a public tribe. If you want to make
it public, you can. You just need to make sure that the content
doesn't portray sexually explicit conduct as defined in 18 USC 2256.
As I recall, you told us yourself that the photos in that tribe were
not central to it.
2. Regarding whether 18 USC 2257 applies to us. This is a legal
opinion, of course, and Jason's legal advice is one thing. Ours
obtained was different, and even I as a layman reading it, it sure
looks like it applies to both us and our users. We spent months,
literally, poring over all that stuff.
3. Make no mistake, every business decision involving legal issues
remains a business decision at the end of the day. Any lawyer in any
corporate legal dept. will tell you that their job is to outline the
risks and the business owners have to make the tradeoffs. It's a
considered legal opinion that 2257 applies to us and our members, and
it's a biz decision that it's impractical for us to comply with the
extremely strenuous record-keeping requirements in it.
4. Nudity per se is not obviously included in the definition of
sexually explicit conduct, and as such we have counseled nobody that
it must be removed. Indeed, we tend to point people to Jason's own
legal guide for adult bloggers, which says the same thing. We try to
be clear to users that it's their decision that matters on this, more
than ours.
Hope this helps. I enjoyed meeting you and hope this will work out in
some reasonable way for you on the site, though clearly it's not ideal
from your perspective.
Feel free to repost these comments in context if you feel the need.
w
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Re: Tribe and 2257
Wed, December 28, 2005 - 7:32 PMYou go, girl! I wish I had been one of those many "witnesses" you mention on your blog post. I would have just loved seeing Wade "here to do the right thing" Lagrone (please, someone hold back my hair as I retch) shown up as the ignorant spineless flunkey he apparently is. This whole debacle reeks more of financial desperation, administrative incompetence, and a remarkably poor understanding of their core users than it does of genuine fear of legal repercussions. Disgusting and disheartening. :-( -
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Re: Tribe and 2257
Thu, December 29, 2005 - 5:19 PMi guess they are just trying to stay employed. isn't that what it comes down to, anyway? this bullshit tribe is pulling is completely disgusting. tribe is a culture of community. we get to pick and choose who we want to be exposed to, who we want to read about, who we want to chat with, who we desire to see photos of. we took full advantage of something tribe agreed to put out. now that it has a life of it's own b/c of the RAD people that use it, it's getting choked outl FUCK! it's not fair, and it's not right. and tribe is pickin on the more "mature" tribes. it really reflects the mind of America today. suck it!!!!
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Re: Tribe and 2257
Fri, December 30, 2005 - 2:05 PMWalter, Tribe's community manager until last October, posted this eloquent statement regarding Mature tribes and the new TOU on his blog: people.tribe.net/walter/bl...f48e5809e1
I strongly agree with these passages:
"Recently, a Tribe marketing executive sent a message *only* to moderators of Mature tribes, informing them of upcoming changes to Tribe's Terms of Use. Because this missive was exclusively sent to MatureMods, thousands of affected members were left out of an important conversation.
This note was poorly conceived and badly executed. If the intent was to announce a change to the TOU, why not declare that in the subject line? Why obscure the issue with an easily ignored call to action advising members to review their photos?
Color me cynical, but I believe the pending legislation www.freespeechcoalition.com/pdf/...0.pdf referred to in the note is a fig leaf for a hamhanded business decision. More time was likely spent deciding how best to wrap this nasty piece of fish than in debating its merits."
Walter's perspective is that of an "insider", someone who helped to draw up and implement the original Mature option, making what he has to say about the current debate very interesting and enlightening reading indeed.
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Re: Tribe and 2257
Sat, December 31, 2005 - 1:25 PMa US district judge ruled wednesday that 2257 regulations are unenforceable -- specifically exempting sites such as Tribe.net.
I repeat, this law DOES NOT affect Tribe. do not let Tribe use it as a smokescreen to make you think otherwise. shame on the Tribe people behind this, each and all. they jumped on the bandwagon *before anyone was even prosecuted or issued formal violations of 2257* -- they saw it out there and used it as a convenient way to clean up their image.
they can all eat crow now, because it's not going to be a law (except for *primary* producers of porn, meaning the people who have direct contact with naked, fucking performers):
full story:
www.freespeechcoalition.com/2257...g.htm
nice legal wrap-up here:
www.joegratz.net/archives/...eminators/
it's too bad no one outside our group can see this discussion, don't you think? -
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Re: Tribe and 2257
Sat, December 31, 2005 - 4:47 PMWow! Violet! This is an amazing breadth of knowledge of this stupid, slimy law. And it is, in fact, discouraging that Tribe seems to be self-censoring.
I hereby resolve to be more politically active in protecting the rights to freedom of speech and killing killing killing 2257.
Good night, and good luck.
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Re: Tribe and 2257
Sat, December 31, 2005 - 7:12 PMviolet, why can't you make the tribe public again?
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Re: Tribe and 2257
Sun, January 1, 2006 - 7:11 PMI went into the interface and did when I posted the news about 2257! We'll see what happens.
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